Unlearning: self care, social work & joy

Eddie Travieso is a social worker in NYC, artist, and a friend of mine from undergrad! Instead of focusing on burnout and barriers, we focus on the messy, funny, human parts of doing social work. We break down the idea of self care, the grad school experience, and how to find joy in everything and everywhere, all at once 🥯

Follow Unlearning Out Loud at @unlearningoutloudpod on Instagram :)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to our sixth episode of Unlearning Out Loud. Today I'm with my friend from undergrad, my friend Eddie, who fun fact, we have magic tattoos. Very fun fact about both of us. But I'm gonna pass it right to you to introduce yourself, whatever you feel like sharing.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Sick. Hello, guys. My name is Eddie. Um, what an honor and a privilege to be on a podcast. You know, I feel like once in your adult life, you need to make a feature on a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Yes, it's on the checklist.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

It's a that it's a natural line of passage, and what what an honor to be on such an unproblematic podcast. Yes, my name is Eddie. Um I I'm a little jest. You know, I'm trying not to lead with my occupation because I always be like, I'm a social worker. That's my job. That's my job, nigga. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

But you're more than that. You're more than your job.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

But in fashion, um, I'm a social worker in New York City. I'm a supportive housing social worker, I'm a mental health therapist. Not for the fun stuff. I'm an artist. I love going to the gym. I love hanging out with my friends. I love being the guy that says, I'm gonna be on barbecue and cooking food for all my friends and making them. I call myself the meat marauder when I'm on that queue. Like I'm I'm burn- I'm burning meats left and right. But no, um, I'm a father. I have a sweet orange boy. His name is Fuego, he is my my pride and joy. Um, yeah, I I've been, I'm I'm originally from New York. I'm from the Bronx. Um, I wear it on my chest, and I love it so much. The Bronx is the best borough in the world. And yeah, that's me.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Dude, hell yeah. I was like thinking when I was like, oh, you know, it would be nice to like reconnect with some of my like Vermont people, like who do I think would have a really fun time on the podcast? Like you were the first person that I thought of. Because like Eddie is someone who in class, like literally always smiling, even if he's having a miserable time, he's always smiling. He's always making everybody laugh. And what more could you want in a person, but especially in a podcast guest?

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Yo, I'm I'm like, I'm a jester in my core, dog. I love I love spreading laughter and joy. I I do it in my sessions with clients. I always tell people I love I love to laugh, and it's also healing to laugh, but it's also time to get serious at points. But especially like mundane environments, like I try not to take myself too seriously. Like if we're in class, why can't we have a little chuckle? Why can't we share a little giggle here and there? And shit be funny, man. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

No, it was always appropriate. Sometimes it was like someone would say something that was like really fucking weird, and it would just be like the eye contact shared that would just be like an offer. Because some something about social work school is that like you have a lot of different personalities, a lot of different reasons that people maybe get into social work. Some are like very pure of heart, and then others are like, I'm gonna like save everyone, and I know that like my righteousness on this path is gonna be I'm gonna end homophobia and I'm gonna end racism, and everyone is gonna hold hands and get together and kumbaya, and it's a beautiful thing. So it's it's nice to find a gem of a person in those spaces.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

I I appreciate it. There was a lot of you know social work in the very um very women-predominated field, but also like white women um predominantly what is the word I'm on here? A predominantly white woman field. Shout out, Sid. But but like with that, I feel like there's the like, you know, when we talk about intersectionality, you know, you have white, you have woman, one has a privilege, one doesn't. But a lot of people will like lean on the unprivileged parts of their identity when they share like a um an identity with people of power. And that often shows through social work of just like this like savior mentality. I'm gonna solve world hunger. I'm gonna change all the laws ever. I'm gonna I'm gonna have all the diseases so I can check a free to road of the diseases. Like it's always some bullshit, and it's it never reads as like genuine, and those are usually the folks that I ha I find that have a lot of issues in the field coming in.

unknown 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Like we're just people helping people, dog. We we just know a little bit, a little bit in a different field.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Dude, it would for me be the people who are like, like, obviously, you don't have to have lived experience to like want to get into social work. It always felt like it was coming from a place of like, well, I'm pure of I'm more pure of heart, and I'm gonna be able to teach these people.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah, I'm an angel. Watch me float to class and offer shit point shit point of views.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Oh my god. I don't I don't know what your grad school experience was like, but mine was in very similar ways to UVM was very much like who can say the wokest thing in the room in the most intellectual sounding way. And it would just be like people repeating the same thing in different words. And I'd be like, first of all, none of this is authentic. I see your Instagram posts that y'all be making. And two, it just doesn't feel like it's coming from a place of anything other than like, I want to sound smart and I wanna sound woke.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Yo, my grad school experience was surprising because, you know, there I went to grad school with a lot of lovely black women and a lot of people different, because, you know, much different than UVM, which is predominantly white.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

Being in Vermont, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

But yo, the fucking Zionists be sticking it out, bro. I was in research class one day, and that my professor was, you know, I don't know why my research professor thought this was a good idea. She was like, yo, let's let's try to broke, you know, or social workers, right? Let's look at world problems. And honestly, you know, fair. And niggas, yeah, I know your audience, bro. Like, I'm always, you know, UVM and Vermont. UVM and Vermont definitely like my my foundation of perspective is just to like assume that people have like the best meaning in them. And that, you know, in some cases, that's you know, subjective, whatever the best is, or whatever the case may be. But like UVM defin uh and you know who I blame for the Celia Cuddy. She put in my mind that all social workers are good people.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

How dare you stop? This angel of a woman. No, really, though, because she's like literally the epitome of like, because she teaches intro to social work, and you're like, oh my god, this is what social workers are like. That's fucking awesome. And then you go on, and nobody else is like Celia Cuddy, and you're like, fuck. Something, something was mismatched here.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

She like, she came, she came to class today, first day of fall, talking about I was walking here, and you know, I I live close by, but it's a bit of a distance. And too much. I'm being so intense. I'm I'm I'm being attentional with my with my morning, I'm I'm looking around, I'm taking the road around me, and you know, a leaf falls, and I see it's changing color, then it reminds me that there's more on the horizon. It's like it's 8 a.m., bro.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

How do you how are you this call? I love her so much.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

I I I still chat with her every once in a while. I update her in my life. I love Celia.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Because she really is like that epitome, and it does set you up for failure a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Yo, facts. Like, we're in we're in class, and our professor is talking about like, oh, you know, um, she was very much both sides in it, and I'm not with that. And no, she like, yeah, and she was like, oh, you know, um, both people have a right to the land and da-da-da-da. And then one of my classmates was saying, like, well, every time Israel has tried to talk about peace, Palestine has broken it. I was like, Why are you lying? Why why are you telling mistruths? That we we got we got history.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

I can't know which Twitter accounts you're following.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Were you there in 08? What happened? So, like, that that was a whole and plus like the only other like person in my class um that was like arguing against it was another woman of color. And like, I'm like, yo, no one's gonna help my whole girl out. Nah, you wrong. But I don't like it's so interesting to me. I like like being in grad school here has especially showed me like the social workers in the city that really just like don't mind their privilege and whether it's like economic or cultural, like it's just you know, w what whatever they're struggling with is the forefront of why they do the work and it's just disingenuous, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah. No, it's interesting. My grad school was at Boston University, which I thought I don't know what I thought, but I was like, I would like to live in Boston for a year to do the program. Boston is fun. I don't know if I thought so much about what the actual program like might look like. It was like Boston is a very interesting place. Um it was just so much more of that like stereotype of like rich white lady like coming to like save all the underprivileged people. And in grad school, I just did like a purely macro track, so it was just like program and policy development and like foundations of trauma, but it wasn't clinical focused. So it was interesting how much more of it was just like hey, like we're looking at systems, but like we need to work in the system to tear it down, which I understand. But so many people in my cohort, I think, and generally in social work, use that like, well, we have to work in the system if we ever want to change anything as a cop-out to like ever trying to change anything. It really highlights that, like, in social work, you really need to get a master's degree if you ever want to make more than minimum wage and get a job. But that's so unobtainable to expect people to go to grad school, pay that much money, or put themselves in that much debt.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Grad school was hell for me, bro. Like, in hindsight, I got through that shit. Yo, like, one, my job was being a dickhead, so I was at a supportive housing organization. My original program director got a new program and switched over, but she had signed off on my like work and oh, and here comes my son. Um say hi, buddy. Yes, my program director changed jobs, and then we had a new one who was my supervisor who I thought was cool, turned out to be a uh uh I don't like this man. He is he's a sneaky, fake little bitch, and I don't like that. I don't like that at all. Um he still talks shit about me. Like I he he he I occupy so much space in his head, it's so interesting. Nobody views me, so it's funny. All his critiques about me are just like just taking a fucking space, bro, for no reason. So, yeah, he my internship um stipulations were supposed to be, what do you call it? If I I'm allowed to do my internship and during work hours, right? And my new program director was being an ass about it. He was like, I don't want you doing anything like not work-related during work hours, and I didn't feel like arguing with him. So I and I'm also going through issues with my relationship at the time. So I'm like getting up at 5 a.m. doing mad shit, going to work, working eight hours, going to my internship for like two or three hours, and then going to class on top of that, and it was it was awful. And then my fucking my knee gave out. My knee! I had to get surgery.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

What'd you tear? You're like meniscus or something?

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Worse patellar. So the the are you familiar with the tendons?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Some of them.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

So you're this is my this is my foot, you know? Wait, oh this might be a better this might be a better angle. This is my foot, right? This is you know, foot, ankle, knee. The patellar tendon is right here, and it's what helps your leg bend. So that popped. And my kneecap shot up like a couple like centimeters, which is not fun, and I couldn't bend my leg. So I had to go to the hospital. I got surgery the following day. Hospitals in New York suck, bro. They had me in the fucking waiting room in uh in uh the bed like overnight until I got my rugs. And then I got surgery, and then I had this sick scar, and then I got depressed because I couldn't move anymore. And then Yeah, that'll do it. But now we're back.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Did you hurt it like in the gym?

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Nah, I was playing ball, and it was crazy because it was a normal day. Like I did it my my normal. I worked out in the morning, I stretched before, and like on uh on a drive, I tried to like cross my leg like on a on a two-step, but I've done that a million times. But I guess like I I put too much pressure. Like I say, I I exerted more force than my body can handle. And my like the tension release, I thought somebody tricked me. Like I hit the ground, I was I was mad. I was like, who the fuck who the fuck tricked me? And then I was like, Oh, I can't get up.

unknown 13:40

No.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

And I'm gonna like, oh, my knees dislocated, I gotta pop it back into place. But like, I'm like, I I can't move this shit. And when I do, it's an excruciating pain.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Dude, that sounds awful. That's like whenever I see someone tear their Achilles in basketball, it just looks like the most standard move. Like they're not doing anything crazy, but you see like the landing, uh it grossly.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

And the worst part, the worst part too, is like whatever like muscle your tendon is attached to after it pops, that muscle atrophies. So it just gets super fucking weak. So I had like mismatched legs, like one of my thighs was this thick, and then the other one was this thick. Had that for like a good they're still like not fully matched, like you can still tell if you look closely enough, but they're in a much better place, I'll say they're recovering. Shout out to Jim.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

It's so hard.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

It is like so. Ever since I started so fun fact, it's actually transitioned. So after my surgery, um, for some reason, like art clicked in my brain. For like, I don't know why. I've only been drawing on and off when I was younger, but like coming out of the anesthesia, the creative part of my brain unlocked, and I was like, oh, that's how shadows and mid-tones and highlights work. So I started drawing. But with that comes marketing your art, and that shit fucking sucks. It's like, oh, draw your make your process video of like you drawing. Fuck.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

No, literally, it is the worst part, like the social media part of literally like anything like that. I'm like, what do you mean I can't just like do my art or like talk to people and post it and not have to market it or like clip it or edit it or use cap cut.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Right. I I don't like this. And like I should be able to just post because like I I use Procreate and it will like track your your drawing process on the whatever file you use. I should just be able to post that with some music, enjoy like like why do you what would you want to do?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

That's not enough. Right. That's so true. See, that's like a good actual like self-care thing though. Not to bring it back to social work school, but I feel like in social work, social work jobs, social work school, they're always like self-care, what are you doing to take care of yourself while we're like traumatizing you and everything sucks and everything is hard and we give you no time off or time to breathe or think or do anything. Like trying to find what that actually looks like. Because they're like they pretend that they're not, even whether it's school or work, they're like, oh, self-care is more than taking a bubble bath and eating a piece of cake and going for a walk. Like it's more than journaling, but then they don't actually talk about like self-care practices or how that's actually different for everyone. Like I went through a phase on my iPad where I was doing like color by number. That shit was beautiful. But the line between like being an actual self-care activity and like mindlessly playing on my tablet for like hours at a time, that's a thin line of self-care and like being like a dangerous thing.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

No, you like I I I reflected on this because you know, as you age, you get different perspectives. That was something that I had wrote and like written about in college. Um, one of in our research class, one of my research um proposals was like rethinking self-care for like um for black communities and like how that looks for them. Because like yoga doesn't always work. And like, sure, it doesn't work for everybody, but like sometimes taking these like very general self-care things that like do have like because like the core, like if you boil it all down, it's mindfulness. It's like slowing down, it's looking at the world around you and shit. Same with drawing. Like I'm doing, I'm drawing a fucking basketball net right now, and I never realized how the lattices work until now.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

It sucks.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

But it is making me slow down, and it is good, it is intentional. And like when you take these shit from just like taking a deep breath or like doing a face mask, isn't it gonna work? It kind of like just demonizes it when it's like, oh shit, be helping, bro. Like, sometimes after a long day, I need I need me a little blurt, a little face mask, a little face scrub, I throw on some Love Island or some or whatever I'm watching, and just chill. Like, see you everything in moderation. Like, sometimes it needs to be the the bullshit. Like, because it it's unfortunate. I tell this to my clients all the time that like unfortunately, sometimes the answer is just getting a good night's sleep, drinking more water, and eating right.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

No, literally.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

That will be a very good foundation, and then you move from there.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

No, and I figured out that like wo not sleeping for like 12 hours, like sleeping till 12 o'clock, and like getting up and being productive, moving my body and drinking water, like actually did make me feel a little bit better. That was good, but it was annoying.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

It was like why were you guys right? It's this is not it's hard to do, but it's pretty easy instructions.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

It seems like it should be easy.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

I have um I ordered a bunch of these um like mail stickers from you from USPS. I have like 500 of these.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

They're free. Drawing them? Like, am I gonna make stickers out of them?

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Not still- I mean they they are stickers and they do stick, but that was not the intention. But like, yo, it's been a great time, bro.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

I drew this tree. I drew this deer.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

I like the deer.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

I drew Jake the Dog. I drew Drag.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Whee!

SPEAKER_02 19:18

I did a penguin. I drew this guy, I drew this guy. It's a good time, bro.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Good hell yeah. Wait, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

This is my like mid-session fidget when I'm waiting for a client to like load up and zoom. I'm I'm just like, real quick.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Dude, it's I like think about sometimes, because there was a brief period after grad school that I was like a substitute teacher in a middle school, which was crazy. But I think about the different like fidget toys and like stuff that they have and how they're able to like doodle on paper and stuff while the teacher's talking and that's like okay and accept it. I'm like, wow, imagine what that would have done for my brain when I was a kid if I was able to have a little fidget toy or like didn't get yelled at for doodling in the margins of my paper.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Yo, I have this one client that like he's seven, and his dad is very much like that person. Like, he he'll be in the chair, and I'm talking to him, and you know, he's a kid, so he's just like, you know, fidgeting in his chairs getting his baby shit and trying to try to get comfortable in the spot or whatever the fuck. And his dad is like, sit still, look him in the eye when you're talking to him, stop playing with your hand. It's like I can I can I can hear him just fine, bro. So like it and and it's also why like I love my job too. Like, I I love therapy. Like, I I unlike the people we were talking about at the beginning, I got in the social work for actually righteous, actually righteous and and lovely readings.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Because I'm better than everyone and I have true intentions. Exactly. No other teachers are better than mine. These fucking chuds.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

No, um, I got in the social work because I was originally in computer science and that them tests were beating my ass. Fun fact. I was a I was a CS make. I was I was nasty on Python. I was going crazy on Python. And then the test came. Because bro, like, why why are we in CS class and the test is handwritten? Give me a computer. Let me show you how I get down, bro. Let me show you how I really do this. Put me out in the field. Let me show you how I get money. But I switched to social work because as I'm like, I've always been very pragmatic. So I'm I'm like, what are my skills? What am I good at? I love listening to people. And like I I'm really good at just like sitting and hearing people talk. And at that time, I was like, I give good advice, but then as you become a social worker, you learn less about advice and just more about listening. But as I'm like developing in the field, I love people's stories, bro. And I love just hearing like how people get to where they are. And I love working with kids, they're like these little guys, they don't understand anything. All the kids are worried about their aura right now, and they're going they don't want to. Going to aura debt and I feel them, and like it's such like a good cut, because I'm like the little nerd. Like I'm I'm probably online, but I'll I'll speak their language too. I'm like, like, yo, you so you so focus on your aura, but the people that really got aura don't think about that. It just happened. They're themselves. Like, cool shit happens to cool people, just be yourself. And you know they eat that up. Yo, I had one cloud, he's like, yo, why you right, bro? Like, why you why you uh but even with that, it comes like advocacy for kids. Like, you know, sometimes kids that are afraid to talk to their parents, and I remember being that kid of just like not knowing the word to say and being really afraid of it. So, like, you know, making that safe space for them is be like, yo, you know, what whatever is said in here, unless you plan on hurting yourself or others, I'm not gonna tell nobody else.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Like if you plan on hurting yourself, I have to tell.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

That is a big problem. No. But if you're like, you know, if you're just like, sometimes my dad get on my fucking nerves and that nigga pissed me off and it's my throw tantrums, then let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Right. And it's so important for kids to have that space. Because I feel like it's so much more normal now for people, but especially kids to like go to therapy. Even when I was a kid, it was very like, oh, you go to therapy? Why? What's wrong with you? Which is crazy because like we're not that old. Like, I'm about to be 27, but I'm not that old.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

My friend keeps telling me we're pushing 30, and I'm like, fam, three years is a long time.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah, dude. We're doing okay. But it's it's so funny. Like, kids, I loved working with kids because they're so blunt, whether it's like them calling you fatty, whether they're asking you like why you look like a man, or they're just like really open and they're like, oh, like, you know, I don't think it's okay when people like say mean words to other kids. And I'm like, period, like you're right, it's not okay. We uh talk a lot about like red flags. And I'm like, yeah, you're right, like that is a red flag. And the kids are being, is that a red flag? If you're like scared to go home, I'm like, yeah, babe, that is a red flag. Do you want to talk about it? Like when you give them the language to like actually be able to talk about things in a way where it's not like weird or taboo for them to be talking about it, like they're so open, they're so cute.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Yeah, like you can't, like, if you're trying to make a kid do something, you're never gonna see who they are. And like it they're you just gotta like if they're weird, let them be weird. I got this one kid that he um he's a little weirdo. He uh whenever he gets uncomfortable, he like changes voices and acts like he's from like the 1950s or some shit.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Like I do that.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

But like he he tries to like it, it's not DID, he's actually bullshitting me. But like he he tries to like don't he tries to like don a new personality in that moment. And like it's not I'm always just like take a deep breath and like can I talk can I talk to my guy, please? Can I I don't I don't I don't have news for you right now. I'm sorry. Can I can I talk to my guy? We were in the middle of a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Can you bring him back?

SPEAKER_03 25:21

You know, you play you play into their emotion a little bit. Yeah, you have to. You gotta be kids where they're at. And you know, I'm I remember being the kid that was like very quiet, very shy, didn't like to talk, and only when I was like comfortable with somebody, and then that took forever to happen. So like I very much try to be like the adult that I wish I ran into when I was younger. It's like, oh, this guy, this guy's kind of nice, and you know, he's he's a little weird he wears birkenstocks to work sometimes, but you know, he's a chill guy.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

But I like him anyway.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

I had one client, I thought I knew we were we were getting like you know, the relationship was building. I I I I come get him, I'm like, yo, fake name. And then I'll come back and shit. And he I hear him chuckling and I'm like, Are you laughing at my Birkin stocks? He's like, Yo, why are you wearing those? Like, I like to be comfortable. Sorry, pal. I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

How freeing is that?

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Right. He's like, This is so cringe. I'm like, to be cringe is to be free. I have no one telling me what to do.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

I had I was teaching a class of like second graders, and a kid like shares something and don't even know what it was. But one of the other kids was like, ew, that's embarrassing. And the second grader goes, It's only embarrassing if I'm embarrassed and I'm not. I was like code. Dude, I was like, write that down, write that down. That's so good.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

Yo, he ate, he ate that little boy.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

He ate that little boy. He did. I literally like the quotes I hear from working with different populations. My favorite from working with the guys in the jail, we were talking about like homophobia, as you do. So we're talking about like the triangle of violence and how it's rooted and like racism, homophobia, all the isms. Um, and like we were talking about like why would someone like have a problem if they like ran into like a gay couple? Why would they be so upset about that? And this guy goes, I don't really know because what they eat isn't gonna make me shit. I was like, dude, I've never heard that before. Like, that's so good. I literally wrote it down.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

I was like, What they eat don't make me shit.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

I was like, that's so good. What good perspective to have.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

I've been trying to like, you know, because I feel like people can just articulate themselves in such a way that's like so like profound, and it'd be the simplest shit. And like something that I found myself like, because I'm trying to say no to more things, and that's very difficult. But I I just find myself falling back on like, dog, this shit not moving me right now. Oh it'll it'll it'll give me life, like it's not moving me. I don't feel any emotion behind this decision.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Is that bringing me joy?

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Like, I saw everything everywhere all at once. This shit don't make me feel those feelings.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Oh, that movie.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Fuck, yo, that's my favorite film, bro. I was watching it last night and I couldn't even get to the part where I started crying, yo. I was right there though. I was right there. It's such a good it's such a good monologue.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

It is. It hits every time. I watched that movie for the first time. I was visiting one of my friends from UVM in Chicago, and it was like him, his girlfriend, like two of his roommates and their friends, and I had never seen the movie before, and I like kind of knew that it was like gonna be good, but I didn't know how like emotional it was gonna make me. Everyone's like, oh, this is cool, and I'm like fucking bawling. And at one point, one of my friends and roommates looked at me and was like, Are you okay? And I was like, just leave me alone, I actually can't. I was like, um, I wasn't prepared for that. If I knew it was gonna be like that, I would have watched it in the safety of my home.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

If you want like a really good, like, you know, I love my mom movie, the wild robot, bro.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

I love that movie.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Oh my god. I cannot watch that movie and not cry, bro.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

I love that movie, yo. I saw that movie by myself at an AMC. And I was like, it was like me and like one other family in the theater, and I literally went, oh, it's so cute.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Yo, but she said, I've been rewiring my programming for months for this. I was like, that's really motherhood, bro.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

This is such great writing. Dude, it was such beautiful art. I um we watched The Sheep Detectives last night. Oh my god, I need to watch that. It's on Amazon Prime, which, you know, I have feelings about Jeff Bezos, but like I thought I cried three separate times. Like, not even like, oh, I'm wiping a tear away. Like, tears are falling down my face while I'm watching it. It was so good. Are you fucking kidding me? After you watch it, you have to text me.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

I will know because I I heard that it's like people thought it was a cutesy movie, and then it gives to like complex themes about grief. And like, oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Oh my god, it was nuts, dude. And like the last shot of the movie, dagger in the heart. I was like, oh, I thought it was just gonna be about like sheep that are detectives. And they are, and they're good detectives, but it really hurt me.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

They are yo, ever since college, I've been becoming like a baby Cenophile. Like, I have a letterbox account and I'd be I'd be reviewing movies. Yo, I mean a letterbox, bro. Edboy Plastics 8. I give them a lot of fives.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

No, I literally I'll be like, um, it wasn't that good, but I had a really good time. Five stars.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

No, me, like, if I like a movie but I know it's bad, I'll I'll I'll break that no. Like Fantastic Four, the second one or the first one, is like objectively kind of shit, but boy, is it a good time. But my my cap my um biome on letterbox is do I give out a lot of fives or do I only watch peak?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

It's all about intentional framing.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Exactly, but no, yo, everything everywhere, like because we were talking about like being a jester earlier. I I relate to Waymond like heavily, bro. He is so cute. I love him so much. Like I my first time, because I had to watch that movie to really like understand the like the the the multiverse hopping shit, and like I I can explain it like the back of my hand, like it's good now. And like once I got that, I'm like, alright, now for the themes. And the characters are so complex, everybody has their own like journey, and that that part when you know she was from the kung fu reality and they both parted away then reconnected. Yo, that monologue he gave her brought tears. Oh my god, bro. Yo, he said you thought I was weak, but I just fight different.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

So good, bro. So good. He's so sweet. He's underrated. He's an underrated guy.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

I love good dads in media. He's like, as a as a fatherless child, I it always it always touches my heart.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

But he's much fatherless behavior for me.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Every once in a while I see like discourse about like good sitcom dads. I don't know if you've seen Modern Family, but Phil Dumfey is always on that list, and he's like a good dad, but a really shitty husband. Like he always has wandering eyes and like doesn't appreciate his wife. Like, just because he's funny doesn't mean he's a good dad.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

It's like the sitcom dad is so interesting because it's like the the stereotypical American dream of like, you know, three kids, I hate my wife.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

I really appreciate sitcoms like that so Raven, because like you really don't get that. It's just like, oh, these Ravens' parents, and they don't play, they love her.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

There's not a lot of that. I feel like you said that, and I was thinking of like Sweet Life of Zack and Cody, where like where is their dad?

SPEAKER_03 34:16

They don't have a dad.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Yo, does he ever like guest star?

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Nah. Yo, single mother. I I I think there was an episode about it one time. Like that he was supposed to be coming but never did, and that's how you learned he wasn't shit. But I may I maybe like like I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

I think you're right. No, because I remember seeing like the actress that plays their mom was like, no, like those are my kids. Like I took care of those kids.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

And they loved her. Like there was um, I for I think it was Cole or Dylan, I forget which one, but like one of the um executive producers wanted him to say a joke, and because Kim, like the actress was um president at the time, Kim Rhodes, and they um they were like, Oh, tell her she's getting fat. And she was like, I would never disrespect that woman.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

If you want me to stay and write something funny, I'm like, okay, look, that's what I'm talking about. The amount of like fat shaming like jokes and stuff and that era of TV is crazy. Like, I rewatched Hannah Montana recently, and like every other episode is something about how someone is like really, really fat. And mind you, none of them are fat.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

So they're like 120.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Dude, literally, like it's always about Billy Ray Cyrus, which like I'm pretty sure he's not the best. Don't cancel me, but I've heard he's not the best guy.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

So, like, but he's not fat. He's tall.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

You know, my my barometer, maybe you don't date somebody your daughter's age.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Just as a And he met her on the set of Hannah Montana when she was a kid.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

You know, you know, he he may just doubt himself as a patient man, and other people may look at it differently.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Yeah, I'm really strict about my my dating preferences. I've I've been I got a um me and my partner parted ways like a year and a half ago. And that was like my longest-term relationship. We were together for like six years. And so now I'm like exploring my my wants and needs as an adult and learning how to date, and it is ah, I'm I I'm I'm so black. It's such a process, bro.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

How is it? Are you on the apps and stuff? Because it's bleak. I don't know about the city, but it's bleak.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

I'm on field, it's cool. Like field will show me field is uh so I'm very sex positive, and like it's a sex positive dating app, you know, freak looking for freaks is is is how I would how I would describe it.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

That's cool. I'm glad they have app for that.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

They do. Um and like, you know, I've I've met a couple people on there, um, one person I've been talking to for a minute, but it's like I don't know, I don't know if it's like a Gemini thing, but like I'm generally just like I don't feel like engaging in this way with people at this point in my life right now. Like, you know, after I've been in and out of relationships like most of my life, and like I just kind of I love my friendships right now, bro. Like, I'm so fulfilled in my friendships, and it's been so nice just doing stuff with the homies.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Me me and um, you may know her, but she was in our social work program. Me and uh or she was a year ahead of us in social work. Me, me and Amanda with the E-Monite theatre.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

I knew you were about to say that. Yeah, I know her.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

Yeah. We went to the brewery, like, me and my other friends had a barbecue last weekend. We got some shit planned in the summertime. I'm going to Atlantic City next weekend with some friends. Like they didn't know fulfill me like that outside of sex, and so like finding people with that common mind and like us being on the same page makes life a lot, you know, makes shit easier. And like sometimes people be on the same page at first and then, you know, flip switch up in the at some point afterwards. And that's true. It's like, what are you gonna do? You can't hold it against them.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

No, but it's important to like find that fulfillment in other like types of relationships.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Hi, Johnny.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Oh my god! And Charlie! Oh, he got grays! Oh my god! Charlie was an honorary member of our cohort at UVO. Oh, Johnny.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

My sweet boy moging in the background. He's such a little baby. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

He's seven and a half now. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Yes. Oh my god, I remember you when you would not miss me.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Dude, literally, I'm like, he was our like collective child.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Oh my god. Everybody loves a doodle.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

They do. Uh he was I was talking to someone about how I would like bring him to class every once in a while. And like I would specifically bring him past like the daycare they had on campus, and all the kids would press their faces up against the fence and be like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

I I want Fuego was like the shyest guy ever. He was the scaredy cat by trade. And I want to like take him everywhere with me. I got him a leash, I want to take him on walks, but like he's just so scared and he doesn't like to be closed. But my one of my friends was like, Oh, you just want attention, you try to put pick up weapon. I'm like, I love this guy. I want to spend every waking moment. I just I just want to spend every waking moment with him.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

He's so fucking cool. No, but literally, I'm like, when I have to like actually go to work, I'm like, you want me to leave my kids? Like, what are you?

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Home alone? Like, I always tell him I'll be back.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

I'm like, I'm gonna be back probably around like 2:30. Like, I literally will like tell him the time. I'm like, so that's about like six and a half hours from now.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Get your rest. I know you're a sleepy guy.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

And he is. We got a cat like a year ago. I don't know where he is. It's really surprising that he hasn't been like right here yelling in my face. He his name is Louis, short for Lucifer, because he is legitimately demonic. He like really tricked us at the shelter, like being so cute and quiet. And he like legitimately doesn't stop meowing. Like he and he it's not just like cute little like spurts of meowing, like it's like I'm screaming in your face. Uh yes, and he like literally never settles, he never sleeps. Like, he is like one of one. Like he is insane, and I love him, but he's nuts. Like, it's actually making me nervous that I don't know where he is.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Me, me and my son are we out here doing PR, right? Like, I'm I'm a Gemini and we have terrible PR. He's an orange tabby, also terrible PR. They they call him crazy, they call him wild, rambunctious even. The sweetest, the sweetest baby. He wakes up, yeah. He's not even like vocal, bro. Like, he only meows when it's time to eat and he demands to be fed. Like, or if I'm like laying in bed for too long, he'll like start meowing to get my attention. But he's like, and his meow is so cute. I'm like, what do you want in my little king? How can I serve you?

SPEAKER_01 41:41

No, my my co-worker also has like a gray cat because that's what Louie is. And we he is also crazy, maybe like a tenth as crazy as my gray cat, but crazy nonetheless. And we'll literally be like, no, like I think gray cats are the crazy ones, and like orange cats just get a bad rep. Like, I think it's the gray cats we need to worry about.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

Sucks. I want all animals with bad reps. Give me the pit bulls, give me the rottweilers. The give me the babies. Because I I I I see who they are beneath it all.

SPEAKER_04 42:12

Give them me.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

I'm beyond. It's the social worker in me. You're just you're just a little guy. We're all just little guys, regardless of gender. I've been trying to like, you know, we can't be given our values and shit in the session. However, life is real. So whenever I hear something, then like, you know, whenever one of my clients would be like, oh, these damn women and their and their emotions and shit. Like, right? My question is always just like, yo, how how does that opinion like impact like affect your social life? Like when other people hear you say that, who are you afraid to say that around?

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Ooh, that's how you know you're a good therapist. It's the polite challenging of like, oh, like, so why do you think that? Like, literally, one of the guys in my class, he was going on and on about how he like tells his daughters, because he has like 12 kids, six daughters and six sons. Uh yeah, I don't know about all that. But he's like, he was going on about how he's-I don't know. I don't I don't know who taking care of that. But um he's like, Oh, I tell all my daughters like how to protect themselves and like how to dress modestly and how to like not get raped and not get cat called and all these things. And I like interrupted him and was like, Can I ask you a question? He's like, Yeah. I'm like, So do you tell your sons like the same thing? And he was like, You know, I never thought about that before.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

I have not considered that one.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

I was like, Oh, okay, no, I I didn't I don't want to like push it. I was I was just wondering if it was a conversation you only had with your daughters and not your sons. And he was like, he was like, Maybe I need to calm my sons up.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

I love when like you catch the wrong person and just like are you challenging like my my thought? Yeah, actually.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

I am politely and I'll back off.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

If you get uncomfortable, we can stop. But if this is a repeated issue, yeah, we're gonna talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Yeah, because then we're always like, I'm gonna ask you, or I'm gonna be like, oh, can I ask you a question? You don't have to answer. And they're like, yeah, I'm not gonna back down from a question. And then sometimes they get really like defensive. I don't know. It's fun though. I like to be I like to be the challenger and I like because like what's facilitating you can't like similarly, you can't share like your morals or opinions. And sometimes they get really heated and like want to know what I think. And so I'm like, well, I can tell you like after the session is over if you still want to know, or I can tell you like a super binary, like, as women, a lot of the times this is what we think, or like a woman might say this, um, being the only woman in a room. Um but sometimes they're like they get like really heated. Like one of my first classes in the jail, a guy was like, Well, let me ask you a question. And I'm like, You can try. And um, he was like, if you were dating a guy for like five or six years, and five or six years into the relationship, he calls you a stupid fucking bitch. Would you break up with him? And I said, Well, me personally, yeah, I'm not I'm not gonna put up with that. And he was like, Well, that's not fair. You're the like healthy relationships teacher. And I was like, then why did you ask me?

SPEAKER_03 45:44

Like, well, yeah, that's that's not a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

And he was like, That's not fair. Most women, they're not gonna like do anything. Cause his whole thing was like women need to like stick up for themselves. Like if their boyfriend hits them, they need to like hit back or like stand up for themselves. And I was like, Well, what do you think would happen most of the time if a woman like does stand up for herself or does like try to hit back? Do you think that a man's gonna back off or do you think that it's he's gonna come down on her like 10 times more? And he was like, Mmm, well, yeah, but they should try.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

Yeah, I I love like a a little compliment sandwich because I think and you know, back to social work and Celia, they're like I I like to assume that at people's core they think they're making the right decision. Yeah. And you know, when I hear the your your your your guy say that, and my first thought is like, well, that's stupid. Why the fuck would they do that? Like my second thought is like he has he sees the potential in women of not being these like small creatures that can't defend themselves. And he is trying to like push for that, just in a not so correct way. And we can work with that, because that's great. That many people have that.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

We can build off of that.

SPEAKER_03 47:01

Like I think jail is a great place for like people to explore the like intricacies that exist in like hetero relationships, or you know, there's nothing heteronormative about jail at all. So, like, why are we even like trying to why are we trying to enforce that while we're here, you know?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

When I tell people who like like my family or like people who don't do social work at all or like are very like anti-working with people that are incarcerated, I'm like, oh no, I love going to the jail. It's like my favorite program. The looks, like these people will look at me and be like You said you like to go to jail and work with the scary men who are in jail. What's wrong with you? Like, no, like you said, you gotta like look at the humanity of the people. Like, they're so real, they're so fun.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Yo. I've I've been having to cope with the with the fact that some women view me as a scary man, and it has been, you know, I view myself as a little guy. However, not everybody sees me the way I do. So I have to be very mindful of that.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

No, it's it's interesting because it's like I think a lot of women do have that like general, like, you are man, men's scary, you are scary men. If A plus A equals B. But you gotta like, like my friends and I sometimes would be like, no, like men start off down here and they need to like prove their way, like up the ladder, they gotta earn it. Is that right? But that's like something we talk about in the jail too, like, we're like, oh, like 90% of like violence against people is like committed by like men. But does that mean that 90% of men are violent? No. And what's fun is like reading them the stats of like because they're always like, oh well, women abuse men too, which like is true, but like I think it's like 85% of crimes or like violent crimes against men are perpetrated by other men. So the common denominator being men. Yeah. And they don't always like it.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

And they don't it and like it's always like, yes, this exists. However, in counter to this point, what's the point here?

SPEAKER_00 49:21

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

What are you trying to like are are you trying to nullify what I'm trying to say? Are you trying to bring awareness? Is this the only time you talk about this?

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Right. Cause it's the same thing when they're like, oh, well, if a woman can hit a man, then like a men should hit a woman. Like it's like you only bring up violence against men as like a caveat to talking about like violence against women, then like you're just using it as like a but what about this?

SPEAKER_03 49:49

Like there's there's this thing I've been observing recently, right? And it's like I'm keeping track of the waves of feminism. And I'm noticing um I have a grasp, and the waves the waves were turbulent. But I wonder, and and this is just like you know, in my immediate area of New York, but I'm I'm seeing that there's like a wave of feminism like this forming that is circling back to conservative values about like how women should be treated in society, and it's like terrifying because I was like, guys, where what what what happened?

SPEAKER_01 50:23

No, it everything is like a circle, like it somehow always like ends up going back around, and it is it's like some of that like trad wife stuff, even like on social media. I'm like, okay, so that's scary. I don't know why you would subscribe to that. It's weird.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Yeah. I had um this one person I was I was dating a lot for, and she was very much like on like her point of view was women are so like behind in society due to like the patriarchy that men should want to take care of them and to do these things, and and like it where it it makes me question like where where does your autonomy come from? And like when when do you like pursue your joys? Where what are your hobbies? Who are you? Like, it's so I don't know, I can't do it. It also just feels very paternal. I'm I'm I'm nobody's father. Except except for this little sleepy.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

Except for this man right here.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

But nah, it's it's so interesting. Like, and like I I'm I try to like have because it it's hard to like have these reflections and not feel like an intel. Like I'm I'm trying to tote the line of just like, hey guys, men's rights. But like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

No, like that, wait, wait, no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait, wait, listen, listen, listen, listen.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

Like, I'll be trying to have like, you know, like some of my friends here, like, I I love them to death and they still have their own views that like we we have clash toast at times, and that's just friendship at times, you know, as long as it's not about anybody's human human rights, like we can have disagreements. But it's like, yo, I I'll be explaining to my men, like my my my friends, how like sometimes it feels very dehumanizing being viewed as like just a man. Like, you know, I like to draw. Yeah. You know that I I enjoy gardening and plants. Like, there's more to me than my exterior. How dare you? And my my friends come like usually respond with something that's like, yeah, that's why I wanna be XY.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Whoa. Pause.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

I'm like I'm like Limp Biscuit.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

I'm gonna add that overlay in the clip.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Yo, it's like you want I guess that there's this value in those conversations because there are like really residual feelings for like certain men, and like how like whenever like I hear but women talk about like you know, scary, violent men, and like I have some of my friends that I know view me as that. It's like, well, dog, I would like to think that you know me enough to know that like that's not how I I view you. Like, do you view me as a friend or a man? Like, or it it that hurts.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

And I think a part of it too is like you kind of have to think from other people's perspectives that are like weird or harmful or bad, to like try and understand like where they're coming from. Even if it's wrong, I feel like it's important to like reflect and be like, well, how do we get there? Like, why do they think that? What's the impact of them thinking that? Like, I think that's an important piece to unpack too. A lot of big picture stuff.

SPEAKER_03 53:50

You know, they're not just like there for no reason, like shit around them led them to this thought, and like and at the the core is just like ensuring their survival and ensuring their safety. Like you mentioned before, like trying to have this like barometer for men of just like you know, they have to earn their way up. And like I have as a man, I have the privilege of having no expectations for people, and then once they they upset me, I can navigate it from there. And some people don't have that privilege. Sometimes like navigating it from there means life or death. And like that's just you know, life, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Yeah, it's like where you start out based on the different like identities that you hold. Like, like you said, some people it's like, no, I operate on that system because it's like for my safety. Like it could be like a life or death thing. And then there are some people who are just like haters of people because of their identities. Whether they're like woman haters, man haters. Because like I think there's like legitimate people who are like, what's that called? Like a misinterest that's like the opposite of a misogynist.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Yeah. This is a funny, disgusting story.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

When I was younger, me and my cousins were um, we found this like like this advertising shit of like beer, and it was just like this metal plaque that you could hang up on the wall, and it was advertising like Corona, I think. And we were playing a game to where we would spit at each other, and then you would have to use the the the beard thing to block it. And I always like, this is fucking disgusting. What do you got, Jordan?

SPEAKER_01 55:19

He's like, this includes bodily fluids, and we're done.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

No, save bodily fluids for the bedroom, man. This is nasty. Why do you spit in on your man? That's so great.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

That's such a kid thing to do, though.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Like, like you don't know any better. Like, yo, God, what if we just spit at each other?

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Like, what a fun game to play.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

Oh, Yuri Tag.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

You can't get me, you can't get that far, you're not hydrated. You're not hydrated.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

That's good.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

Fuck bad games. Don't play that.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

Come up, be more creative. Come up with games that don't include bodily fluids, please.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

Um if nothing else from today.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

Literally, it's funny because I was looking at the time and I was like, okay, what's one thing you want to leave people with other than that?

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Yo, one thing I want to leave people with. Um, yo, scraps that joy itch, man. Like, laugh, have fun, do cool shit. Like, if you have an idea that seems like it's joyful and joyous, do it. And if you don't know what to do, look in your inner child, because that that little guy knows some stuff that you may have forgotten. Yeah, I recently rediscovered the joys of just like going to a park and looking at the sky. Oh fire, bro. Like, I did like an eighth of mushrooms, mind you. That helped. But just looking up at the sky, the clouds are shifting. I thought I saw the thunder guy. I took a picture of him. I'm pretty sure that's too much. Cause yo, every person that I've shown this picture to sober has been like, I see it. Yeah, you weren't you weren't buggy. But like, there's there's so much like little things in life. Like, you need joy, there's so much sad shit happening. Like, it it you're the external world can be so scary if you can try to make your immediate bubble as nice as possible so you have something good to return to. By all means, find a way.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

Dude, hell yeah. Well, I appreciate you for coming on. This was the first episode I did like at my house with all my Legos and stuff in the background.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

That's what those are. We have the same um the same shelf. Yours is just in like a row taller than mine.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

Target, baby.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Target.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Yeah, so thank you. Um, this was our sixth episode. I'll put a little screenshot of the Instagram, and I'll see y'all next time.